A Former Fourth-Grade Teacher Is Working To Ease Your Migraines feat. Jillian Levovitz Fink ’17

[00:00] Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Pivot series, where guests share stories of transformation in their lives and careers.

[00:14] Maya: Today's guest on Owl Have You Know is Jillian Fink, Full-Time MBA of 2017. The healthcare entrepreneur shares her story of pivoting from elementary education to co-founding and leading a medical device startup company. She talks about her unconventional path, her advice to those considering a pivot in entrepreneurship, and also, how she invests her time in giving back to the community.

Jillian Fink, Full-Time MBA of 2017, is our guest today on Owl Have You Know. Jillian, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today.

[00:48] Jillian: It's really a pleasure to be here. I'm happy to have this chat.

[00:51] Maya: So, Jillian, you are the CEO and co-founder of a medical device startup called OcciGuide, which is a market-disrupting innovation that guides complex injections for treating headaches, specifically migraines, which are alternatives to opioids and other medications for pain control. You also just took on a new role as Chief Strategy Officer for FemHealth Insights, which is also very, very exciting. Honestly, looking through your bio, you have definitely done quite a bit before your time at Rice, during your time at Rice, and after graduation. And I want to get to all of these incredible things that you're doing in the healthcare space. But, first, let's talk about your undergraduate degree in elementary education. You went to Boston University. And you were a fourth-grade teacher.

[01:44] Jillian: Correct.

[01:45] Maya: So, quite the arc from teacher to CEO of incredible startups. So, tell me about your journey.

[01:53] Jillian: Yes. So, when I was younger, I loved working with kids and teaching. So, that was what I did in my undergrad. I actually worked for a nonprofit for two years when I first graduated, but I was very excited to get that classroom experience in, and really enjoyed it. And I would say that there's a lot of overlap between being a classroom teacher and being CEO, a lot of planning that goes into lesson plans in your day, and then a lot of people management.

[02:20] Maya: Littler people, right? A little, a little shorter.

[02:26] Jillian: They're definitely shorter, but sometimes their personalities are not smaller.

[02:31] Maya: For sure. I actually have a fifth grader, so I know what you're saying. You're speaking my language.

[02:36] Jillian: So, yeah. And then, I ended up working in a healthcare clinic. My husband actually started a clinic when I was pregnant with our second son, and I really was just helping him get set up with the office, finding a lease, helping get equipment set up, first hires, and whatnot. And it really just grew into a full-time position of managing what ended up being a multi-site clinic out in California. And then, we moved down to Houston, and I had an opportunity to, kind of, reassess what I was doing with my life. We were not far from Rice's campus. And I said, you know, maybe I'll go back to school. And actually, instead of learning from my own mistakes, I can learn from other people's mistakes.

[03:19] Maya: Perfect. Or learn... you know, actually, you learn more from your failures, is what I learned when I... during my time at Rice than you do from your successes. So...

[03:27] Jillian: Absolutely. And I love those case reviews because you get to learn about other failures, just gives you a much more complete picture of what's out there, different opportunities, different types of companies, and different types of challenges that you might face in other types of industries and whatnot. So, it's a lot of fun.

[03:44] Maya: So, that clinic that your, that your husband opened, it was a pain management clinic, right? There were multi-sites.

[03:49] Jillian: Yeah.

[03:50] Maya: So, was he really the one, the catalyst that got you interested in the healthcare space?

[03:55] Jillian: Yes, absolutely. I would never be here if it weren't for that, no doubt. And there, every now and then, I'm like, healthcare's very complicated. There's a lot of regulatory requirements to deal with, a lot of quality systems that you wouldn't necessarily have to consider, working in a different industry. So, it definitely has its unique challenges, which have been fun and frustrating to learn about all at the same time.

[04:19] Maya: Well, like the FDA, right? We'll talk about that in a minute.

[04:22] Jillian: Yeah.

[04:23] Maya: The FDA and getting approval is definitely quite a hurdle to overcome, especially, with new organizations and the new medical device startups. So, tell me about OcciGuide because, like I mentioned, I have a fifth grader and I also have an older daughter, who's a ninth grader, and she has definitely struggled with migraines. And what I've learned by researching you is that migraines disproportionately affect women more than men.

[04:48] Jillian: Yes.

[04:49] Maya: Is that a hormonal reason? Or, what's the research on that?

[04:53] Jillian: So, I'm going to first say they don't know. There are great answers. I think that hormones play an enormous role. And one of the proofs for that is that, actually, headache predominantly impacts women in their reproductive years. So, when they're going through those hormone surges that you see a huge increase in prevalence of headache, and then, also, pregnant women, you see an impact on headache prevalence. Birth control can have an impact on headache prevalence, and menopause can have an impact on headache prevalence.

So, all of those times in a woman's life when her hormones might be escalated or be reduced all have an impact on headache. And then, you have case studies of women who report that, you know, "I know every month, like clockwork, I'm going to have a migraine on this day. And I can plan it. I know it's coming." And there's nothing they can do about it because there just aren't great abortive or preventive treatments out there.

[05:45] Maya: So, tell me about OcciGuide and what it does to really better the quality of life of people that have to suffer through this.

[05:52] Jillian: Yeah. So, we're really excited about the product. It... basically, there's a procedure that's called an occipital nerve block. And it uses just numbing medication that's injected along the pathway of the nerves to the back of the head. And it's similar to going to the dentist, and they numb your mouth and you just don't feel pain anymore. So, it is very effective in shutting off that pain signal to the back of the head.

Unfortunately, this procedure is really only done by specialists who don't actually treat headache patients unless they've, kind of, tried everything else, it's failed. And then, they might end up with one of those headache specialists or pain management physician. And what the device does is it actually uses the anatomical relationships between the boney landmarks and the nerves in the back of the head to actually identify the location of the nerves. So, any provider, nurse practitioner, or physician assistant can administer this procedure in any care setting. You know, this is alternative to medications that have a lot of side effects, a lot of sedating medications, a lot of medications that cause nausea. So, very often, women have a headache, and the cure is almost as bad as the disease. And you have over 50% of headache patients report that they actually avoid medications because of that impact on work or school.

[07:07] Maya: There's a lot of side effects with all of the different... I mean, I know from experience and watching that, sometimes, it's just like, "You know what? I don't, I don't want to take that pill because it's going to wipe me out for the rest of the day."

[07:17] Jillian: Yeah, exactly. So, especially, patients who end up in the emergency room for headache treatments, they're basically given Benadryl, very high doses of Benadryl —

[07:27] Maya: Wow.

[07:27] Jillian: ... and knocked out and sent home to sleep it off, versus with this treatment, there are really virtually no side effects. And there are really no counter-indications, either.

[07:34] Maya: So, is this, obviously, with your husband and his background in the healthcare space. Tell me about your journey to Rice. So, you moved to Houston from California and, probably, learned that it's one of the best, if not the best, entrepreneurial business schools in the country. So, was that the draw? Was entrepreneurship something that was tugging away at you, and you're like, "You know what? That's where I need to go?"

[07:57] Jillian: So, the truth is, and I never told this before, but...

[08:01] Maya: Oh, good. I'm glad you're telling me now. This is great.

[08:05] Jillian: Our secret. We lived in Houston, and I have four kids. My fourth was actually born right after we got to Houston. They were all in school. My husband was on staff at one of the hospitals and whatnot, and we were not moving. So, I only applied to Rice. It was Rice or I wasn't getting my MBA. And thankfully, I got in.

[08:25] Maya: Well, I mean, and lucky you did, lucky for Rice you did, because I mean, your accomplishments are very large, long, and broad. I mean, this is phenomenal, what you've done. So, you started in 2015, and you wanted to focus on entrepreneurship. And was OcciGuide something that was already on the horizon for you? Or, is this something that developed while you were in school?

[08:49] Jillian: It was, kind of, very, very, very early we'd been just talking about the potential for it. And then, there were actually some of our professors at Rice, or my professors at Rice, who thought it was interesting. And there's a tech entrepreneurship class, or was when I was there, that we got to, kind of, run it through the class and do some of that really early market research, Lean Canvas development, or whatnot. I got to work with my classmates on it, which was great because I had so many really, really smart classmates, and all of their contributions were just so fun and helpful, to be able to partner with them. And then it, kind of, grew from there.

[09:26] Maya: So, tell me about the growth. So, you started in a class with an idea, which the best ones, that's how you start, and you lean on your classmates, on your team, to develop it. So, walk me through how you got from, you know, initial ideation to this product that was approved by the FDA.

[09:48] Jillian: Yeah. So, we started just doing that market research. We knew that headache was a big problem, in general; but also, in the emergency room, there were 5 million visits to the emergency room with a primary complaint of headache every year. So, that just seemed a really interesting place to start because they just don't have great treatment options for those patients in that care setting. And so, we built out our possible customers. We did a lot of customer interviews, got a sense of what kind of attributes they would want to see in a device that they use in the ER, and then work with manufacturers to build the prototype.

And we're lucky enough to get a partnership with Houston Methodist, actually, to test it out. And they used it in one of their ERs. And we got just great data back. We showed a 20% improvement in throughput out of the ER, which is huge for ER metrics. And we also showed almost double the reduction in pain score, pain scores for patients that were treated with the device. And for women who were treated with the device, they had tripled the pain score reduction, compared to the traditional treatment methods. And again, that's without all the associated side effects.

So, from there, we went ahead and listed it with the FDA. We got great feedback from a lot of FDA consultants that we could be a Class I device. And the FDA agreed with that reasoning. And then, we started manufacturing. We were doing a second study with U.S. Methodist, and we actually just got the data back on 200 patients that were treated with the device. So, I am very excited to crunch those numbers and see what the results show.

[11:20] Maya: So, what does Class I approval by the FDA mean, for those of us that really don't know?

[11:25] Jillian: It's basically the lowest barrier of requirements in terms of —

[11:29] Maya: Entry.

[11:30] Jillian: Yeah... We don't have to do huge testing on the device itself. We do have compatibility testing done and whatnot, just to show that it can be used on the skin. But we don't have to have a lot of huge clinical trials as a barrier to entry.

[11:44] Maya: And so, what is the long-range goal for OcciGuide? Is this something that we will have in our homes? Is this something that will only be available through a physician's office, hospital?

[11:56] Jillian: Yeah, I would say, right now, it is a procedure, and there is actually an injection of medication under the skin in the back of the head. So, with that, it will most likely remain in the clinic. But we eventually want to move out of the ER into this, you know. If you follow the news in healthcare at all, there's this huge movement towards this urgent care and retail clinic locations, which weren't there when I was doing my initial market research, while at Rice. But I think there's an enormous market opportunity there. And headache patients really don't seek care in those locations right now, because the general feeling is, “There's nothing they can do for me, anyways.” But if we could provide this sort of treatment in that clinic location, we can potentially avoid all of those ER visits, which is a huge saving to the healthcare system and a huge improvement in just quality of life for those patients.

[12:46] Maya: So, you said that you're in your second FDA study, 200 people. What's the plan for that? So, how long is your study? When do you get results? And then, what are the, what are the next steps?

[12:58] Jillian: Yeah. So, actually, we're done. We have our first set of data for 200 patients that the device was used on. And then, we'll go ahead and, you know, have to do that data analysis and, kind of, review that... those results. And then, hopefully, we'll publish that.

[13:13] Maya: So, probably, your analytical classes at Rice were very, very helpful, right?

[13:21] Jillian: Yes.

[13:21] Maya: All of those statistical analysis classes, am I right?

[13:24] Jillian: The statistical analysis, but even just learning how to use Excel. Pivot tables are hugely, hugely beneficial. And I didn't even know they existed before being at Rice. So, yes.

[13:34] Maya: Tell me about your time at Rice. What were the expectations that you had, going in? And then, what was it like while you were there, to be a full-time MBA? And you were also a mom, right, at the same time? So, how did you juggle all of that?

[13:49] Jillian: So, I will say first, I had very few expectations going to Rice, just because I really had no idea what to expect. No formal business background. I had never taken a business class in my entire life, never taken a finance class, had no idea what financial accounting even meant. So, I was terrified, going in, really, really unsure. And I loved my time there. It was this whole new world that was opened up to me that was just so fascinating and presented in such a great way. And the diversity of class types that you could take, with professors that had such diverse backgrounds and whatnot. So, I just loved my time. And anybody who ever asks me, I recommend that they go get their MBA at Rice because it was just a great experience.

[14:36] Maya: I agree. I recommend it as well, because I had a similar experience, where you're not really sure what to expect and you're, sort of, terrified. And then, you get there, and it's just completely different than anything you would've, in a phenomenally good way. You learn so much from your cohort. You learn so much from your professors. You learn so much about yourself and the things that you are capable of doing that you never thought you would, like, "How in the world am I going to have the time to do all of these things?" And it just... you just get through it, and you do it. And that is also something that, for me, and I'm sure for you, gives you a great deal of strength and knowing that you're capable.

[15:19] Jillian: Yeah, and it was the first time that I had ever done something that was like that, especially after I'd had kids. That was, for me, it was just really a growth opportunity for myself that I just cherished so much. It was really a great experience.

[15:32] Maya: So, what advice would you give women, specifically, who are thinking about, you know, "Maybe, I'll go back, and maybe I'll get an MBA," and, you know, what advice would you give to them? And also, advice for female entrepreneurs that are in a heavily male-dominated industry, like the healthcare space? Although, it is changing. I've seen the stats, it is changing. But what would you say to others that are thinking about taking this leap?

[15:59] Jillian: I would strongly recommend, for sure, I think that, you know, it's challenging, but anything worth doing is challenging. And just as you said, accomplishing that challenging process is so validating and so empowering. And the truth is that, you know, for me, the full-time MBA actually worked out really well because my kids were in school during that time. But I know people who did the Evening MBA or even the Weekend MBA, and it's doable, and there was just tremendous amount of support from the professors and, also, from my classmates and whatnot, and just, it’s a team... As much as it's an individual experience, it's also a team experience. And I just felt completely supported at home by my husband, who was wonderful and encouraging and whatnot, and then, also, from my classmates and my professors. I'll never forget, there was one day that my then four-year-old was home from school and I just really didn't want to miss my operations class. So, he came with me.

[16:56] Maya: That's awesome.

[16:58] Jillian: My professor didn't mind. He was very nice about it, and I'd e-mailed him in advance to make sure it was okay. And all of my classmates and teammates were talking to him and just so happy to meet him and whatnot. And it was just, it was so, so easy and doable and not a barrier at all.

[17:14] Maya: And then, also, advice for female entrepreneurs that are about to step into the shoes that you've walked in for quite some time.

[17:22] Jillian: So, I would say, with everything in business, or in life, finding mentors, finding people who can be there as a resource to help you answer questions and also have already, kind of, identified the pathway is so important. There are amazing women out there to find that can provide that support. But there are also men who can also provide that support, and that shouldn't be overlooked. Right now, there are just more of them because they've been in the industry longer. But just find those people who can really provide support, encouragement, and guidance. And it's going to be challenging, because everything is, but it's also rewarding and worthwhile.

[17:58] Maya: Yeah. So, what's been your biggest challenge as a female business owner that you've had to overcome? You're young, right? Brilliant, young. And, you know, I think that, in some ways, when you look young, it kind of works against you, right?

[18:17] Jillian: Absolutely. Yes, that is true. Biggest challenge, though, I would say, my team is not all female. And there are times when we just say, you know, "This is a meeting I should take and lead, or this is meeting that, maybe, somebody else should take and lead." And that's okay, because not everybody is receptive to the same message. And I think it's okay to accept that and understand that and to know just when's the right time to be vocal and when's the right time to let somebody else be vocal. Not quiet or silenced or whatnot, but just maybe not taking the lead on a meeting. I think just being able to balance that and not taking it personally, because it's not a reflection of me and my ability or my skills or my comprehension level or whatnot. It's just the reality. And the truth is that, in healthcare, you know, I have no healthcare background and I'm not a healthcare provider. So, there are times that I may have prepared all of the talking points for a meeting, but I'll have one of our medical people, kind of, present that or share that because it just has so much more authority coming from somebody who has that medical background than it would from me. And again, no reflection on my ability or my skills. It's just, kind of, playing to our strengths and really utilizing what we have to put the best message forward.

[19:28] Maya: Know your audience, right?

[19:30] Jillian: Yeah, exactly. I just also find that it's so important to listen, also, and not get caught up on getting your message out there, regardless of what other people are saying, but actually to hear what people are saying and respond accordingly in that non-emotional, non-angry way, but just to have that dialogue. And people will respond to that.

[19:51] Maya: Yes, and not think about what you're going to say next without actually listening to what they're saying first. I want to talk a bit about your new role at FemHealth Insights. Can you tell me about that?

[20:05] Jillian: Yeah. I am so excited about this. So, as you mentioned, headache predominantly impacts women. It also differently impacts women. Women have more severe symptoms, and they have headache more often. You know, doing all of that research and, actually, met Brittany Barreto, who is the CEO of FemHealth Insights, but she was getting her PhD at Rice while I was there. And we were actually in a couple of pitch competitions together back in the day. And she had started a Fem-tech-focused podcast looking at conditions that just proportionately, differently, or solely impact women. And so, I was a guest on that podcast talking about headache. And I learned about what she was building with FemHealth Insights, and was just really excited to get involved. And she brought me on. And basically, to take a step back, what it is, is she's collected data on all of these fem health startups — so, startups focusing on conditions that impact women. She was being asked to do consulting projects with that data and give access to the data. So, she's creating a software platform that companies can subscribe to, to get all of this early-stage data on these companies for investment purposes and M&A purposes. And then, we are also building a consulting arm. So, we actually have a couple of projects in the works already that are being developed. So, it's very exciting.

[21:24] Maya: So, it's going to be a platform to match investors to the right startups.

[21:29] Jillian: Yes. So, it gives them an opportunity to, kind of, research the industry and get a sense of what startups are out there. And then, also, comparables. So, as much as investors are working in innovative spaces, they're not always such big risk-takers themselves and they like to see where the other investments are happening and what kind of exits are being seen in a certain area, and then, also, what kind of competitors are out there. And they, actually, like to see competitors because it means that a lot of people recognize a problem is a problem.

So, what this platform will do, hopefully, is take, you know, that perception that FemTech is, kind of, this niche market and help to make it obvious that it's just a huge market opportunity and a huge patient population. You know, women make 80% of the healthcare decisions for themselves and their families, anyways. So, if they're a huge customer in this space, even beyond, the fem health area. But just, again, hearing their needs and listening to them and addressing those concerns and bringing them on as loyal customers just creates a lot of opportunity.

[22:34] Maya: That's really exciting, super exciting. I also want to talk about things that you do in your free time, which I can't imagine that you have. But clearly you do. You are very integrated and involved in giving back of your time philanthropically. And you work with the American Corporate Partners — that's ACP — as a mentor of spouses of active-duty military and entrepreneurship and healthcare. So, what inspired you to get involved with that organization? Do you have, like, a personal connection? Or, how did that come about?

[23:08] Jillian: The person... my college roommate at Boston University, he's no longer active duty, but she was a spouse of an active-duty service member. And we were good friends. It's a long time ago, but during that time. So, I always remembered her experience. And then, I would also say that, when I was at Rice, we just had so many veterans in our class and they were such inspiring people who had really just given so much to this country and to all of us, that I was just deeply appreciative.

And then, shortly after I finished school there, I was... one of the organizations that I was in on their mailing list they sent out that ACP was looking for mentors for this women's program that they were putting together. And it was predominantly these spouses of active-duty service members, which is predominantly women, not 100%, I didn't know at the time, but because they move around so much, it creates a lot of challenges for them professionally because they're constantly having to leave one job and move to the next one. And it's actually a big challenge that I've recently learned about.

So, I work with a lot of women who, in order to address that, they've started their own businesses, one offering nutrition counseling, one doing, kind of, physical therapy. One of them was doing stuff with, kind of, just coaching and mentorship and performance preparation and whatnot. So, it's just been a very, very enriching opportunity. And I'm just very appreciative to be able to give back to a community that I feel gives so much to us every day.

[24:36] Maya: Can you tell me a bit about some of your mentees?

[24:39] Jillian: Yeah. There was one. She is a younger woman, and she... She's a nutritionist. And I'm building this online program. And just she was so diligent. I was just so impressed with her. She was so on top of it and very creative. And I just really, really enjoyed working with her. And we went through this whole, kind of, development journey. I find when I first started working, a lot of times, there are just so many ideas and so many possibilities. And a lot of what we work on is, kind of, narrowing it down and really focusing and deciding.

One of the things I learned at Rice is you can't do everything for everybody in the beginning because you're doing nothing for anybody. So, taking a lot of that and that kind of customer discovery process and just mapping out what the beginning of a company could look like, with the idea that it can, of course, grow from there.

[25:32] Maya: Wow. So, the other thing that you have done while you were in Boston is you joined the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, and you managed all of their fundraising and business development, and you increased their fundraising by 225% in the first year. Like, clearly, you've got some development jobs as well.

[25:56] Jillian: Yeah. So, just to clarify, that was only for Northern Connecticut, Rhode Island. So, they're a national organization that's very, very well-developed. And I...

[26:04] Maya: 225, though. 225% is still really, really massive. Let's... I mean, let's give credit where credit is due.

[26:12] Jillian: No, it was a huge opportunity because, you know, we were coming in, it was, kind of, an underdeveloped territory. And it was a great, great experience. I learned, you know, I was newly out of undergrad and I had no idea what I was doing and learned so much so quickly, which just pretty much described most parts of my career. I come in, kind of, hoping I can do something, and you just get thrown into the deep end of the pool, and it's either sink or swim, which is fun, but scary at the same time.

One question that you had asked that I didn't really address that I'll say really quickly is, just in terms of balancing those kids with the other activities.

[26:49] Maya: Four kids.

[26:51] Jillian: Four, yes. It is, you know, I learned very early on the difference between quality time versus quantity time. And not just the message, I am sure, because it just had such an impact on me. When my first son was born, I was home full-time with him. And he's a total daddy's boy. He loves my husband so much. He loves me, too. We have a great relationship, but, like, he's 15 and he's just... since he was a baby, it was just all about dad. And then, when my youngest was born, I started at Rice. And he's a total mama's boy. So, in the best way, he's really sweet, independent, but just, you know, all about mom. So, it is not about being there all the time, it's just about when you're there being present and just developing that relationship and spending the time and, again, listening. They talk to me about the most fascinating video game characters and whatnot, but never... It's amazing what I've learned about Minecraft over the last couple of years.

[27:45] Maya: Well, and you listen, right? Because you have to listen in order... because then they'll get you, right? They'll be like, "Mom, what'd I just say?" Which is similar, I'm like, "What did I just say to you," right? So, during your time at Rice, what was that moment, that "aha" moment while you were there? Was there one where you're like, "You know what? This is what I'm supposed to be doing now. This is my path. I need to pivot, and this is going to be my future?"

[28:12] Jillian: Yes. So, when... I'm sure you had some experience, but at Rice, we had that two-week orientation right off in the beginning. And that second week, we did in one week that first strategy class that was going to be, kind of, it was four days. I think it was, like, four and a half hours a day of strategy and was really being just, kind of, dropped in. And I absolutely loved it. And that was when I decided to do that secondary concentration in strategy. And I loved every strategy class that I did. And that's part of why I'm so excited about this new position with FemHealth Insights, because I get to just do that. And do strategy projects and, kind of, internal strategy and these consulting projects. And it's just... that's really become the thing that I get the most, the most enjoyment from. And, you know, I really enjoy that challenge.

[28:58] Maya: So, if there's someone listening right now to you and your story, your remarkable story about a significant pivot from early childhood education or just education, to being the CEO of a healthcare startup, and then also doing strategy now, if there's someone that is thinking about considering Rice and considering going there... That was the only school that you applied to, right? So, what would you say that really makes Rice stand apart from the other schools that people might be looking at? Not only in the state of Texas, but beyond?

[29:31] Jillian: First of all, it's a small school, which I found was a very positive thing because you really got to know your classmates and you really got to know people, not even within, you know, the full-time program, but in the evening program and the weekend program. I met such great connections there. Content-wise, I really, really enjoyed all of my classes. Really, I can't think of one that I was like, "That was a waste of time," or that I wish I hadn't taken that class. I wish I could have taken more classes.

[29:59] Maya: You still can, you know. You can audit, like, as a Rice student, as a Rice graduate. You know, this, right? Where I think you pay just, like, a menial fee, which, you know, and you can audit any class that you want. So, just saying, just putting that out there.

[30:14] Jillian: Yeah.

[30:15] Maya: That's a big value-add that Rice provides as well.

[30:18] Jillian: That is great, I actually didn't realize that. That's very cool.

[30:21] Maya: Oh, yeah, you can come back anytime. They'll take you.

[30:24] Jillian: And that's another thing. The campus there is just so pleasant, you know. We have the building with the business school, which I know now they have more undergraduates coming through, too, which is a lot of fun. Just being able to build those connections. And then, also, from an entrepreneurship standpoint, just the amazing engineering resources that they have there. And great students that are looking to partner with people in the business school and do really cool projects. So, there's a lot of opportunity there.

[30:51] Maya: Awesome. Awesome. Well, Jillian, we really want to thank you so much for your time, and loved listening to your journey and your pivot. And look forward to the exciting times ahead for you and your company. And please keep us posted with everything that you're doing. And come back and audit some classes, okay? I mean, you might as well, right?

[31:11] Jillian: Well, thank you so much. It was really a pleasure and I love hearing that updates with Rice and what's happening there, too. So, that's great. Thank you.

[31:20] Outro: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We’d love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Scott Gale.